Did the BOS Dismiss All the Appeals in Advance?

The BOS and County staff focused on ambiguous, topical rebuttals of the appeals before the appellants spoke. Board Chairman Bruce Gibson asserted repeatedly that the board reviewed all the materials submitted by the appellants — but neither he nor the other members raised specific issues as documented in the appeals. In short, the appellants were denied a fair hearing, if they were heard at all.


Before the appeals were heard and dismissed (by a unanimous 5-0 vote) at the September 29th Board of Supervisors meeting, SLO County staff recommended the board dismiss the 16 appeals and proceed with the project, which was recently modified by the Planning Commission.

By having their presentation come before the appellants’ presentations, County staff willingly waived consideration of any new arguments or evidence that the appellants could present for their case. Throughout the County LOWWP process, the BOS has unanimously voted in favor of County staff recommendations without personally questioning those who oppose.

Disturbing trend

Hours before voting unanimously to approve the Planning Commission’s conditions for the project, appellants and regular speakers at public comment presented their case to the disinterested-looking board, which dedicated more time to ratifying and modifying some of the Planning’s conditions than responding point-by-point to the appeals and public comment.

The majority of appellant opinion shifted toward approving the PC’s efforts but advising the board to put STEP/STEG back into the design-build process. The rest of the appeals argued against the sewer being placed at the Giacomazzi site, citing odor and visual concerns including the site’s close proximity to the Los Osos Valley Memorial Park and homes that were not assessed for a sewer. Only one appeal focused exclusively on the preference of having the sewer located at Mid-Town.

The BOS and County staff focused on ambiguous, topical rebuttals of the appeals before the appellants spoke. Board Chairman Bruce Gibson asserted repeatedly that the board reviewed all the materials submitted by the appellants — but neither he nor the other members raised specific issues as documented in the appeals. In short, the appellants were denied a fair hearing, if they were heard at all.

What are the consequences of that tactic? The BOS has successfully transferred the workload of dissecting the appeals to the California Coastal Commission. Adding the possibility that new lawsuits may come from the appellants as a result of the BOS stifling appeals, the process of approving the Coastal Development Permit (CDP) could come to a complete halt.

In their recent editorial on the Los Osos wastewater project, The Tribune wisely wrote (regarding the opposition’s willingness to take the matter to court), “We won’t even go there.” Needless to say, the County hasn’t done the CCC any favors by refusing to address specific concerns made by the appellants.

While last Tuesday’s BOS meeting was a slow and grueling grind for everyone involved, the consensus of opinion showed a rise of distrust in the County. Questions were raised. Did the BOS really understand the appeals? Were all of the appellants’ concerns unjustified? Was it all a colossal waste of time for those who spent countless hours of time researching the issues and forming their appeals — and an excruciatingly long day in chambers? We may never know for sure.

On a related note, Paavogate has transcended from being a 1,300-page formal complaint filed by Lisa Schicker to a potpourri of irrational, sadistic typecasting of LO residents made by anonymously written newspaper editorials. What started as an assessment of the County’s handling of no-bid contracts — and claims of Mr. Ogren’s appearance of conflict of interest — ultimately became the punchline of a joke that took several millions of dollars (and several years of Prohibition Zone resident anguish) to make.

Shredding the truth

On October 1st, the New Times published their “Shredder” opinion (titled “Poo-poo ca-choo”), calling supporters of the complaint, “LONs” or Los Osos Nuts. The anonymous man-child wrote, “Personally, I’d rather be buried neck deep in the contents of their collective compacted bowels than hear anymore about this.”

Mr. Shredder, it’s nasally congested, whiny, pompous opinions like yours that invite the discussion. Mr. Shredder, it’s thoughtless, inaccurate, cynical editorials like yours that invite bricks being thrown at your window — like the time in 2006 when your newspaper educated readers on how to make Methamphetamine. Mr. Shredder, when you make childish, inane diatribes that compare the debate of gravity vs. STEP/STEG to how you manage your bowel movements, you invite the discussion.

Granted, you personally don’t like Los Osos or even writing about Los Osos — even though you often bring up the subject in your column repeatedly — but $165 million is a lot of money that Prohibition Zone residents will be shelling out for a project (and Paavo once stated that the cost could double as projects often do) that will force many to leave. If they’re paying for it, or unable to pay for it — and others outside the PZ are benefiting from the sewer without having to pay — they have the right to talk about it. It’s your job to cover the news — not to berate those who embrace the issue more than you do.

The “Shredder” editorial accomplishes one thing. The editorial reveals a mindset that is proudly toted by the most vocal supporters of the County project and anonymous bloggers, who have labeled opponents as egomaniacs, malcontents, selfish, fat ladies, clowns, trolls, selfish retirees, nut-jobs, loons, obstructionists, obstructionist follies, whores, “fecals,” losers, morons, unprofessional, self-indulgent, self-serving, misfits, delusional, retards, “mongoloids,” dogs, rodents, buzzards, devils, and all creative names one could make with banned FCC words.

One would wonder if the BOS sees the opposition through the same lens as those who thrive in the abundance of logical fallacies and cognitive biases, those who find gratification from inciting fears and arousing prejudices. Did the BOS deny those appeals because they feel the opposition encompasses all those labels?

In the end, editorials like the Shredder’s ” Poo-poo Ca-Choo” do nothing to ease tensions or inform. Tribune editorials like “Bouquets and Brickbats” do nothing to combat misconceptions and insult-ridden propaganda. The vicious cycle of rebranding continues; the newspapers — that many once believed were fair in their coverage — condone, even encourage it.

Without acknowledging the propaganda at face value, the BOS fuels it. And last Tuesday, all 16 appeals were denied without any case-by-case review.

This is one big heavy ball of wrong.

Aaron Ochs

  • http://www.lo528flow.com Julie

    Thanks Aaron for such a great report, your observations are spot on. The Board barely mentioned things within the appeals, let alone additional information brought by the public and even the LOCSD’s letter of early Sept.

  • http://www.lo528flow.com Julie

    Thanks Aaron for such a great report, your observations are spot on. The Board barely mentioned things within the appeals, let alone additional information brought by the public and even the LOCSD’s letter of early Sept.

  • David Duggan

    In the minds and hearts of the County this was a done deal from day one. Noel King, Ex-Public Works Director “We’re only looking at gravity collection”, “Our approach is not going to include considering anything other than gravity collection systems…”, Paavo Orgren, current Public Works Director, “… you know, we need to go with the gravity system…” Bill Garfinkle TAC chairperson chosen by the County, “Go with that gravity system would be an ideal solution for Los Osos,” and so on and so forth. The process was compromised from the beginning. Noel King, “This is our system that happens to be in Los Osos,” “…as if we’re (the County) going to operate it forever.” Nothing has changed unless 7 million dollars of PZ monies and three years later for a so called co-equal analysis of alternatives (except vacuum collection) which has only gotten the intended and pre-determined results can be considered a change. The real battle will be at the CCC. After that, litigation?

  • David Duggan

    In the minds and hearts of the County this was a done deal from day one. Noel King, Ex-Public Works Director “We’re only looking at gravity collection”, “Our approach is not going to include considering anything other than gravity collection systems…”, Paavo Orgren, current Public Works Director, “… you know, we need to go with the gravity system…” Bill Garfinkle TAC chairperson chosen by the County, “Go with that gravity system would be an ideal solution for Los Osos,” and so on and so forth. The process was compromised from the beginning. Noel King, “This is our system that happens to be in Los Osos,” “…as if we’re (the County) going to operate it forever.” Nothing has changed unless 7 million dollars of PZ monies and three years later for a so called co-equal analysis of alternatives (except vacuum collection) which has only gotten the intended and pre-determined results can be considered a change. The real battle will be at the CCC. After that, litigation?

  • Lisa Klump

    Frankly, I’m sick of Garfinkle…It makes my blood boil when he goes in front of the BOS & spouts off about the “majority” of people in the PZ want a gravity system…That’s NOT the system I want, nor any of my friends & neighbors. I would like to know how much experience Diodotti, Hutchins & Waddell have in wastewater treatment plants. What are their qualifications, if you know? Paavo is a whole other story, he’s clearly in this over his head. Unfortunately, those of us in the PZ will be paying big time for his mistakes. All this is so typical of a corrupt county..It’s obvious Paavo just “stepped” into his cushy position…he obviously didn’t have to take any aptitude tests, so much for the good old boy system. Keep up the good work Ed & Aaron!

  • http://beeooch@charter.net Lisa Klump

    Frankly, I’m sick of Garfinkle…It makes my blood boil when he goes in front of the BOS & spouts off about the “majority” of people in the PZ want a gravity system…That’s NOT the system I want, nor any of my friends & neighbors. I would like to know how much experience Diodotti, Hutchins & Waddell have in wastewater treatment plants. What are their qualifications, if you know? Paavo is a whole other story, he’s clearly in this over his head. Unfortunately, those of us in the PZ will be paying big time for his mistakes. All this is so typical of a corrupt county..It’s obvious Paavo just “stepped” into his cushy position…he obviously didn’t have to take any aptitude tests, so much for the good old boy system. Keep up the good work Ed & Aaron!

  • David Duggan

    PZ assessment money ($ 5 million) is also going to water conservation (toilet retro fit) which is a basin wide benefit for the whole of Los Osos. This means that the PZ is going to pay for a benefit of persons living outside the PZ who do not have to pay a single penny to realize a special benefit. Did the wording of the assessment ballot include this expenditure? And what does this do for the retro fit credit program? Is this conservation effort expenditure for PZ properties only? Is this money allotted on a case by case basis or can someone be contracted to retro fit multiple residences?

  • David Duggan

    PZ assessment money ($ 5 million) is also going to water conservation (toilet retro fit) which is a basin wide benefit for the whole of Los Osos. This means that the PZ is going to pay for a benefit of persons living outside the PZ who do not have to pay a single penny to realize a special benefit. Did the wording of the assessment ballot include this expenditure? And what does this do for the retro fit credit program? Is this conservation effort expenditure for PZ properties only? Is this money allotted on a case by case basis or can someone be contracted to retro fit multiple residences?

  • Lisa Klump

    Dave, Unfortunately, the homeowners in the PZ have been taken for a ride….again. We’re paying for alot of things that benefit the entire community. Everyone will benefit from better water, but we’re stuck with the entire tab. Just like if Tri W gets turned into a park, the folks in the PZ paid for it, but EVERYONE benefits. Maybe if it is turned into a park, those of us who paid for it will get wrist bands giving us free admission, but everyone else pays admission????? I’m sick of the double standard.

  • http://beeooch@charter.net Lisa Klump

    Dave, Unfortunately, the homeowners in the PZ have been taken for a ride….again. We’re paying for alot of things that benefit the entire community. Everyone will benefit from better water, but we’re stuck with the entire tab. Just like if Tri W gets turned into a park, the folks in the PZ paid for it, but EVERYONE benefits. Maybe if it is turned into a park, those of us who paid for it will get wrist bands giving us free admission, but everyone else pays admission????? I’m sick of the double standard.

  • http://www.lo528flow.com Julie

    Dave, you are mistaken about the toilet retrofit, the whole program as put forth by the Planning Commission is gone. The retrofit credit program will likely be only for those outside the PZ.

  • http://www.lo528flow.com Julie

    Dave, you are mistaken about the toilet retrofit, the whole program as put forth by the Planning Commission is gone. The retrofit credit program will likely be only for those outside the PZ.

  • Alon Perlman

    You are correct Julie, LOCAC is still looking to that exact point to iron out the contradictions.
    Lets call them -Existing, And PROJECT, (potential)
    (between two different retrofit programs current, implemented, and not yet corrected, and one that will need to be developed (somewhat for CCC, and post CCC)
    Though I have yet to review the changes at the BOS 11th hour (of 13 hrs total not including the breaks).
    Paavo-(“Credit”- as in toward $5000) “retrofit may be available to people before project start.”
    ————————————————————————————-
    Double D- Dave, As in Ditto Ditto for your first post
    _ word verification on Ann’s blog today in a posting-
    Verification: unking I wrote it down, since it was unrelated to my comment on that post
    —————————-
    Incidentally Aaron, the 2? papers, Trib. -in other articles? (I thought I saw it twice, maybe separate trib-ulations, may had mentioned 17 Appeals which would be even more incorrect than 18.

    “I’d like to change the world, and I know exactly what to do, but I’ll leave this one up to you”

  • Alon Perlman

    You are correct Julie, LOCAC is still looking to that exact point to iron out the contradictions.
    Lets call them -Existing, And PROJECT, (potential)
    (between two different retrofit programs current, implemented, and not yet corrected, and one that will need to be developed (somewhat for CCC, and post CCC)
    Though I have yet to review the changes at the BOS 11th hour (of 13 hrs total not including the breaks).
    Paavo-(“Credit”- as in toward $5000) “retrofit may be available to people before project start.”
    ————————————————————————————-
    Double D- Dave, As in Ditto Ditto for your first post
    _ word verification on Ann’s blog today in a posting-
    Verification: unking I wrote it down, since it was unrelated to my comment on that post
    —————————-
    Incidentally Aaron, the 2? papers, Trib. -in other articles? (I thought I saw it twice, maybe separate trib-ulations, may had mentioned 17 Appeals which would be even more incorrect than 18.

    “I’d like to change the world, and I know exactly what to do, but I’ll leave this one up to you”

  • Alon Perlman

    And since I did not review it -
    5 mil/How many houses in PZ (+ RWQCB3 Moratorium lifted????)
    I wrote $5000 in previous post-
    Admin costs?

  • Alon Perlman

    And since I did not review it -
    5 mil/How many houses in PZ (+ RWQCB3 Moratorium lifted????)
    I wrote $5000 in previous post-
    Admin costs?

  • Aaron

    The Tribune was incorrect. It is 16 appeals according to the SLO County web site.

  • Aaron

    The Tribune was incorrect. It is 16 appeals according to the SLO County web site.

  • Alon Perlman

    Yes I know, Aaron. I viewed them on the SLO County web site soon after it came out. I also immediately saw that 3 appeals had 18 pages, that one more contained the 18 pages plus other content.
    Naturally that meant that only 14 Unique Appeals would be reviewed, I confirmed it with Supervisor Gibson at office hours (without leading questions, Just cause I can think like a supervisor, I didnt want to “suggest) anything).
    I did suggest during the LOCAC Meeting that those Appalents that choose not to use their entire 10 minutes be allowed to use the remainder for “Rebutal”, I think that’s showing on chanel 20 right now.
    Several Apallents took the opportunity to make “summations” Which the Supervisor chose to call them, being as he explained that the Appeals were in themselves “rebuttals”.
    I know you have a genetic predisposition to call the tribune Wrong, so I hope that was OK for you. I still don’t know (or care) If there was more than one article wrong, or if the Shredder got it Right.(the number of appeals 16, Number Accepted 14, Number going forward to the CCC)

  • Alon Perlman

    Yes I know, Aaron. I viewed them on the SLO County web site soon after it came out. I also immediately saw that 3 appeals had 18 pages, that one more contained the 18 pages plus other content.
    Naturally that meant that only 14 Unique Appeals would be reviewed, I confirmed it with Supervisor Gibson at office hours (without leading questions, Just cause I can think like a supervisor, I didnt want to “suggest) anything).
    I did suggest during the LOCAC Meeting that those Appalents that choose not to use their entire 10 minutes be allowed to use the remainder for “Rebutal”, I think that’s showing on chanel 20 right now.
    Several Apallents took the opportunity to make “summations” Which the Supervisor chose to call them, being as he explained that the Appeals were in themselves “rebuttals”.
    I know you have a genetic predisposition to call the tribune Wrong, so I hope that was OK for you. I still don’t know (or care) If there was more than one article wrong, or if the Shredder got it Right.(the number of appeals 16, Number Accepted 14, Number going forward to the CCC)

  • Aaron

    It doesn’t matter who is wrong or right. I figured the Trib made a typo.

  • Aaron

    It doesn’t matter who is wrong or right. I figured the Trib made a typo.

  • David Duggan

    The following is the response I received from the county concerning the five mile and other.

    PZ assessment money ($ 5 million) is going to water conservation (toilet
    retro fit) which is a basin wide benefit for the whole of Los Osos. This
    means that the PZ is going to pay for a benefit of persons living outside
    the PZ who do not have to pay a single penny to realize a special benefit.
    Did the wording of the assessment ballot include this expenditure?

    A determination has not been made on whether the additional funds, up to $5
    Million, required by the Planning Commission for conservation are a special
    or general benefit.

    Conservation is an important element of the effluent disposal equation
    because it is a cost effective way to reduce disposal needs and costs. The
    Assessment Engineer’s Report estimated $19,422,000 of Special Benefits for
    the effluent disposal system. This amount included an estimated cost of
    $1.3 Million, plus an inflation factor, for water conservation. If
    additional funds for conservation are still cost effective in reducing the
    overall effluent disposal system costs, they could be considered a special
    benefit. If more money for conservation is found to be better defined as a
    water supply enhancement, then that portion of costs would be a general
    benefit. Either way, the conservation requirement is a cost of the
    wastewater project associated with the conditions of approval.

    It is also important to recognize that the debate over special versus
    general benefit is only related to capital costs, since only capital costs
    are included in the assessments. If some of the $5 Million required for
    water conservation is spent as part of a multi-year conservation program,
    then it could not be included in the assessments.

    And what does this do for the retro fit credit program?

    The retro-fit program is a response to the current water shortage. If the
    conservation program and other water supply management under the ISJ solve
    the water supply problem, then there will no longer be a need for the
    retro-fit program.

    Is this conservation effort expenditure for PZ properties only?

    Since it is a condition of the wastewater project, it will be paid for the
    by those who use the wastewater services, unless some other funding source
    is identified.

    Is this money allotted on a case by case basis or can someone be contracted
    to retro fit multiple residences?

    The details of the water conservation program have not been developed. The
    program will identify how property owners would be allocated the
    credits/funds/improvements.

  • David Duggan

    The following is the response I received from the county concerning the five mile and other.

    PZ assessment money ($ 5 million) is going to water conservation (toilet
    retro fit) which is a basin wide benefit for the whole of Los Osos. This
    means that the PZ is going to pay for a benefit of persons living outside
    the PZ who do not have to pay a single penny to realize a special benefit.
    Did the wording of the assessment ballot include this expenditure?

    A determination has not been made on whether the additional funds, up to $5
    Million, required by the Planning Commission for conservation are a special
    or general benefit.

    Conservation is an important element of the effluent disposal equation
    because it is a cost effective way to reduce disposal needs and costs. The
    Assessment Engineer’s Report estimated $19,422,000 of Special Benefits for
    the effluent disposal system. This amount included an estimated cost of
    $1.3 Million, plus an inflation factor, for water conservation. If
    additional funds for conservation are still cost effective in reducing the
    overall effluent disposal system costs, they could be considered a special
    benefit. If more money for conservation is found to be better defined as a
    water supply enhancement, then that portion of costs would be a general
    benefit. Either way, the conservation requirement is a cost of the
    wastewater project associated with the conditions of approval.

    It is also important to recognize that the debate over special versus
    general benefit is only related to capital costs, since only capital costs
    are included in the assessments. If some of the $5 Million required for
    water conservation is spent as part of a multi-year conservation program,
    then it could not be included in the assessments.

    And what does this do for the retro fit credit program?

    The retro-fit program is a response to the current water shortage. If the
    conservation program and other water supply management under the ISJ solve
    the water supply problem, then there will no longer be a need for the
    retro-fit program.

    Is this conservation effort expenditure for PZ properties only?

    Since it is a condition of the wastewater project, it will be paid for the
    by those who use the wastewater services, unless some other funding source
    is identified.

    Is this money allotted on a case by case basis or can someone be contracted
    to retro fit multiple residences?

    The details of the water conservation program have not been developed. The
    program will identify how property owners would be allocated the
    credits/funds/improvements.

  • Lynette

    I am veering off topic here with the permission of the blogs owner, Aaron.

    Ann has archived the posting with the vacuum system discussion and the discussion wasn’t really over. I am not here to dis vacuum, which is one of the two possible technologies that will ring the bay when the gravity system goes in, nor am I here to dis AIRVAC or Flovac or the other vacuum vendor’s systems. Around the bay is an appropriate place to put that sort of system.

    But I am here to hopefully put to rest the vacuum controversy by opening up a discussion as to why it is not appropriate for all of LO.

    I’m not an engineer and can only report from what I read, but one thing struck me was the vulnerability of the system to intended or unintended damage.

    I was in Michigan over the summer and spent a day with friends at their lakefront home. Naturally, or perhaps unnaturally, the conversation veered off to what sort of sewage collection they had. Vacuum. So I asked how it was working out for them and they said fine and I tried out the bathroom and there was no difference in flushing! And I could see how the application would work well with not many residences strung out around a lake and most were owner occupied.

    So what is the difference? Flat, very flat terrain and owner occupied. Here we have hilly terrain in places and a fair number of renters, not all family types either, but a fair number of students.

    I am currently taking a class at Cuesta, so I am in the student milieu. I am now recalling my college days (and I went to several of them, over varying periods of time, so this isn’t from just one source). The professor gives a syllabus, explains what is expected in assignments and some in the class follow along and others – well, there were no iPods back in my student days – but the same thing occurred then as now – “What assignment?”– “I thought it was due next week!” – “We were supposed to write about – what?” The point I am trying to make is about responsibility. A vacuum system requires user responsibility – much more so than a septic system which might forgive a gallon of bleach in its contents, and of course a gravity system. A flushed rock, a flushed cell phone (for revenge!), flushed diapers even – many, many people will be inconvenienced by such carelessness as an entire string of houses will be affected.

    That was just the “soft” non-technical part. The stairstepping aspect for vacuum systems to move the sewage around – I can see how that works going downhill only, but then you have to go up again. For that you need vacuum lift stations, which are roughly 12′ x 15′ garages. Where are those supposed to go? The cost savings are in few valve pits with 2 or more houses sharing and few lift stations. Los Osos would need something like 17 lift stations – !

    Vacuum was studied in the TAC – maybe John Fouche could be interviewed as to why it won’t work here, as he has been active in the alternative “party line” and not tainted like some others by being accused of being “gravity friendly.”

    Think of water service lines under pressure – what that looks like when a pipe bursts. Then picture sewage under pressure…

    I agree with Aaron, vacuum was not studied as much as other systems – it was eliminated early on and for a reason. Not cost effective for our terrain.

  • Lynette

    I am veering off topic here with the permission of the blogs owner, Aaron.

    Ann has archived the posting with the vacuum system discussion and the discussion wasn’t really over. I am not here to dis vacuum, which is one of the two possible technologies that will ring the bay when the gravity system goes in, nor am I here to dis AIRVAC or Flovac or the other vacuum vendor’s systems. Around the bay is an appropriate place to put that sort of system.

    But I am here to hopefully put to rest the vacuum controversy by opening up a discussion as to why it is not appropriate for all of LO.

    I’m not an engineer and can only report from what I read, but one thing struck me was the vulnerability of the system to intended or unintended damage.

    I was in Michigan over the summer and spent a day with friends at their lakefront home. Naturally, or perhaps unnaturally, the conversation veered off to what sort of sewage collection they had. Vacuum. So I asked how it was working out for them and they said fine and I tried out the bathroom and there was no difference in flushing! And I could see how the application would work well with not many residences strung out around a lake and most were owner occupied.

    So what is the difference? Flat, very flat terrain and owner occupied. Here we have hilly terrain in places and a fair number of renters, not all family types either, but a fair number of students.

    I am currently taking a class at Cuesta, so I am in the student milieu. I am now recalling my college days (and I went to several of them, over varying periods of time, so this isn’t from just one source). The professor gives a syllabus, explains what is expected in assignments and some in the class follow along and others – well, there were no iPods back in my student days – but the same thing occurred then as now – “What assignment?”– “I thought it was due next week!” – “We were supposed to write about – what?” The point I am trying to make is about responsibility. A vacuum system requires user responsibility – much more so than a septic system which might forgive a gallon of bleach in its contents, and of course a gravity system. A flushed rock, a flushed cell phone (for revenge!), flushed diapers even – many, many people will be inconvenienced by such carelessness as an entire string of houses will be affected.

    That was just the “soft” non-technical part. The stairstepping aspect for vacuum systems to move the sewage around – I can see how that works going downhill only, but then you have to go up again. For that you need vacuum lift stations, which are roughly 12′ x 15′ garages. Where are those supposed to go? The cost savings are in few valve pits with 2 or more houses sharing and few lift stations. Los Osos would need something like 17 lift stations – !

    Vacuum was studied in the TAC – maybe John Fouche could be interviewed as to why it won’t work here, as he has been active in the alternative “party line” and not tainted like some others by being accused of being “gravity friendly.”

    Think of water service lines under pressure – what that looks like when a pipe bursts. Then picture sewage under pressure…

    I agree with Aaron, vacuum was not studied as much as other systems – it was eliminated early on and for a reason. Not cost effective for our terrain.

  • David Duggan

    I wouldn’t ask John Fouche for the time of day due to the fact the he and others failed this community in so many different aspects of this process (IMHO). I have voiced that opinion on more than one occasion.
    Vacuum did not receive the technical scrutiny the other collection system have. As to how many lift stations would be needed I question your expertise in even suggesting the amount need. Let’s leave that to the engineers. You comment on pressurized water system and vacuum systems shows that perhaps you need to get some more edumication on the subject. The TAC was a farce. The committee was weighted toward a preconceived conclusion. Even though I disagree with you I have respect in your stating your uneducated opinion. Thomas Jefferson “The people cannot be all, and always, well-informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.” “Government being founded on opinion, the opinion of the public, even when it is wrong, ought to be respected to a certain degree.” So keep on keeping on.

  • David Duggan

    I wouldn’t ask John Fouche for the time of day due to the fact the he and others failed this community in so many different aspects of this process (IMHO). I have voiced that opinion on more than one occasion.
    Vacuum did not receive the technical scrutiny the other collection system have. As to how many lift stations would be needed I question your expertise in even suggesting the amount need. Let’s leave that to the engineers. You comment on pressurized water system and vacuum systems shows that perhaps you need to get some more edumication on the subject. The TAC was a farce. The committee was weighted toward a preconceived conclusion. Even though I disagree with you I have respect in your stating your uneducated opinion. Thomas Jefferson “The people cannot be all, and always, well-informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.” “Government being founded on opinion, the opinion of the public, even when it is wrong, ought to be respected to a certain degree.” So keep on keeping on.

  • Lynette

    Dave,

    1. You sound very angry. Just remember, you voted them in, so you must also be angry at yourself too for not discerning their inability to perform this task. Perhaps they failed because their guidance on attempting to do this was flawed? Or perhaps it was the “poke a stick in the eye” attitude toward the Water Board that ruined things. Not getting that bridge loan probably was the clincher on the collapse of the Blakeslee compromise – what do you think?

    2. The number of lift stations was not a number calculated by me, but was an engineer’s opinion. Now I may have gotten the total wrong as this came from memory, but I did not perform these calculations myself to arrive at 17.

    2. I wasn’t attempting an exact analogy, but if you have never had a water pipe burst at your house (I have) the effect is awful. I will take your advice and get more “edumication” on the topic however. (Dave! Take advantage of spell check!)

    3. I’m sorry you felt the TAC was a farce – I did not. What preconceived conclusion do you refer to?

    4. As an uneducated opinion maker, I equally respect your uneducated opinion. Neither of us is an engineer.

    5. The public opinion that caused the recall can be respected to a small degree in that it has caused the further education of those voting to be more discerning voters. $100/out-of-town was the lie that will cause us to now pay $250/mo. I hope the author of that slogan is satisfied with the result, as less can afford $250 than could afford $200.

    6. Whose calculations do you refer to that seems to make vacuum affordable for you?

  • Lynette

    Dave,

    1. You sound very angry. Just remember, you voted them in, so you must also be angry at yourself too for not discerning their inability to perform this task. Perhaps they failed because their guidance on attempting to do this was flawed? Or perhaps it was the “poke a stick in the eye” attitude toward the Water Board that ruined things. Not getting that bridge loan probably was the clincher on the collapse of the Blakeslee compromise – what do you think?

    2. The number of lift stations was not a number calculated by me, but was an engineer’s opinion. Now I may have gotten the total wrong as this came from memory, but I did not perform these calculations myself to arrive at 17.

    2. I wasn’t attempting an exact analogy, but if you have never had a water pipe burst at your house (I have) the effect is awful. I will take your advice and get more “edumication” on the topic however. (Dave! Take advantage of spell check!)

    3. I’m sorry you felt the TAC was a farce – I did not. What preconceived conclusion do you refer to?

    4. As an uneducated opinion maker, I equally respect your uneducated opinion. Neither of us is an engineer.

    5. The public opinion that caused the recall can be respected to a small degree in that it has caused the further education of those voting to be more discerning voters. $100/out-of-town was the lie that will cause us to now pay $250/mo. I hope the author of that slogan is satisfied with the result, as less can afford $250 than could afford $200.

    6. Whose calculations do you refer to that seems to make vacuum affordable for you?

  • Lynette

    Sorry about the numbering!

  • Lynette

    Sorry about the numbering!

  • Lisa Klump

    Lynette, You bring up many interesting points…One of the biggest problems with the CSD (IMHO), is that they were taking advice from the WRONG people…..Many of whom had no stake in the outcome…People such as Gail McPherson & Al Barrow, to name a couple. Gail lives outside the PZ & has caused more problems than almost anyone else. Especially with her shameful assist with the so-called “Blakeslee Bill”…And her CONSTANT touting, “Trust the County, trust the process, etc. etc……Al comes with his own special set of problems, that seems to taint the entire Commumnity….

  • http://beeooch@charter.net Lisa Klump

    Lynette, You bring up many interesting points…One of the biggest problems with the CSD (IMHO), is that they were taking advice from the WRONG people…..Many of whom had no stake in the outcome…People such as Gail McPherson & Al Barrow, to name a couple. Gail lives outside the PZ & has caused more problems than almost anyone else. Especially with her shameful assist with the so-called “Blakeslee Bill”…And her CONSTANT touting, “Trust the County, trust the process, etc. etc……Al comes with his own special set of problems, that seems to taint the entire Commumnity….

  • Lisa Klump

    Sorry, it’s C-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y!!!!

  • http://beeooch@charter.net Lisa Klump

    Sorry, it’s C-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y!!!!

  • Lynette

    Lisa, I find it interesting that Gail gets people to do what she wants, but if what is done gets that person into trouble, she is blameless in the eyes of the unaware (as she cleverly keeps herself in the background). When are her minions going to wake up?

  • Lynette

    Lisa, I find it interesting that Gail gets people to do what she wants, but if what is done gets that person into trouble, she is blameless in the eyes of the unaware (as she cleverly keeps herself in the background). When are her minions going to wake up?

  • Lisa Klump

    Lynette, are YOU the only one here that has a BRAIN & can think for herself? I saw early on the problems Gail was creating & still not too many people “:get it”! When will they get their “wake up call”? She has done so much damage.

  • http://beeooch@charter.net Lisa Klump

    Lynette, are YOU the only one here that has a BRAIN & can think for herself? I saw early on the problems Gail was creating & still not too many people “:get it”! When will they get their “wake up call”? She has done so much damage.

  • Lynette

    Lisa, I am by far not the only person who has “opinions” about Gail. I wasn’t here when she made “the scene.” I’m thinking she hasn’t got too much left to do here. She has done it already, as has Al. Now we just need to figure out how to pay for the additional costs.

  • Lynette

    Lisa, I am by far not the only person who has “opinions” about Gail. I wasn’t here when she made “the scene.” I’m thinking she hasn’t got too much left to do here. She has done it already, as has Al. Now we just need to figure out how to pay for the additional costs.

  • Lisa Klump

    Lynette, You’re right, Gail has DONE her damage in this Community & now it’s time for her to move on to “Greener Pastures”. I’ve always been of the belief that she was somehow “recruited” to come into town & cause all this pain & agony for all of us in the PZ. Gail’s “job” is done here in Los Osos. Maybe she’ll go back to Riverside!

  • http://beeooch@charter.net Lisa Klump

    Lynette, You’re right, Gail has DONE her damage in this Community & now it’s time for her to move on to “Greener Pastures”. I’ve always been of the belief that she was somehow “recruited” to come into town & cause all this pain & agony for all of us in the PZ. Gail’s “job” is done here in Los Osos. Maybe she’ll go back to Riverside!

  • Lynette

    Lisa, I don’t think she was recruited to cause pain and agony – I think there COULD be a financial advantage for someone or some group to delay a sewer which Gail has certainly furthered rather admirably, whether she was working for “them” or not. I wonder what she is planning to do next as this sewer saga will be ending relatively soon?

  • Lynette

    Lisa, I don’t think she was recruited to cause pain and agony – I think there COULD be a financial advantage for someone or some group to delay a sewer which Gail has certainly furthered rather admirably, whether she was working for “them” or not. I wonder what she is planning to do next as this sewer saga will be ending relatively soon?

  • David Duggan

    1. I’m not angry. I didn’t vote for J.F. In fact I ran against him in the recall election and the subsequent election. They waited until it was to late to go through the process for a new project by choosing to litigate instead. I think the stick prodding of the community was done by the RWQCB at the pleading of some our local community icons. There was no compromise. That was just a delay tactic by the State.

    2. That engineer must have a name. I would like to see the supporting documentation for that number of lift station. That type of review was never made by the so called “TAC.” If it was it was never made publicly.

    3. It’s still apples and oranges.
    I meant (edumication) in parody like if I was to say,” I got my learnin and edumication at Hllbilly U. so now I can cipher my numbers.”
    Preconceived, meaning where the county is at now with the current project and how this end result was voiced from the beginning. Didn’t you read the quotes.

    4. Actually, I am an engineer. I was trained at Fort Belvoir’s Mechanical and Technical Engineer School.]

    5. You have to remember that people outside the PZ voted in the recall election.

    6.That’s the rub of the whole thing. No evaluation was done on the vacuum system so we’ll never know the cost.

  • David Duggan

    1. I’m not angry. I didn’t vote for J.F. In fact I ran against him in the recall election and the subsequent election. They waited until it was to late to go through the process for a new project by choosing to litigate instead. I think the stick prodding of the community was done by the RWQCB at the pleading of some our local community icons. There was no compromise. That was just a delay tactic by the State.

    2. That engineer must have a name. I would like to see the supporting documentation for that number of lift station. That type of review was never made by the so called “TAC.” If it was it was never made publicly.

    3. It’s still apples and oranges.
    I meant (edumication) in parody like if I was to say,” I got my learnin and edumication at Hllbilly U. so now I can cipher my numbers.”
    Preconceived, meaning where the county is at now with the current project and how this end result was voiced from the beginning. Didn’t you read the quotes.

    4. Actually, I am an engineer. I was trained at Fort Belvoir’s Mechanical and Technical Engineer School.]

    5. You have to remember that people outside the PZ voted in the recall election.

    6.That’s the rub of the whole thing. No evaluation was done on the vacuum system so we’ll never know the cost.

  • Lynette

    Dave, I don’t have time for a full answer tonight, but to keep the conversation going, read this:

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/wellfleet/news/x185900087/DEP-issues-strict-sewer-protocol-for-Provincetown

  • Lynette

    Dave, I don’t have time for a full answer tonight, but to keep the conversation going, read this:

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/wellfleet/news/x185900087/DEP-issues-strict-sewer-protocol-for-Provincetown

  • Lynette
  • Lynette
  • David Duggan

    The following link is the Provincetown Town Managers report of the time line and action or inaction of the Public Works which lead to the cascading breakdown of the system. From what I’ve read it seems that the lack of following proper protocol and the lack of communication is what caused a simple leak to cascade into a full blown emergency.

    http://www.provincetown-ma.gov/Waste Water/2009/sewerupdate090711.htm

    I’ve also written to Provincetown Officials and have asked them several key questions about the incident and I will forward them as I receive them.

    My take on your resistance to a full and fair evaluation of vacuum collection is not based on science but expediency. To latch onto a single incident of which operator malfunction was the main culprit as a negative against vacuum to me seems short sighted. It is true that all systems have their plus and minuses but without a fair and the so called “co-equal” analysis I believe the County has short changed the community to the tune of 3 years and 7 million dollars.

  • David Duggan

    The following link is the Provincetown Town Managers report of the time line and action or inaction of the Public Works which lead to the cascading breakdown of the system. From what I’ve read it seems that the lack of following proper protocol and the lack of communication is what caused a simple leak to cascade into a full blown emergency.

    http://www.provincetown-ma.gov/Waste Water/2009/sewerupdate090711.htm

    I’ve also written to Provincetown Officials and have asked them several key questions about the incident and I will forward them as I receive them.

    My take on your resistance to a full and fair evaluation of vacuum collection is not based on science but expediency. To latch onto a single incident of which operator malfunction was the main culprit as a negative against vacuum to me seems short sighted. It is true that all systems have their plus and minuses but without a fair and the so called “co-equal” analysis I believe the County has short changed the community to the tune of 3 years and 7 million dollars.

  • David Duggan

    It seems the previous link didn’t translate so you’ll have to type it in yourself.

    Sorry

  • David Duggan

    It seems the previous link didn’t translate so you’ll have to type it in yourself.

    Sorry

  • Aaron

    And I have to agree with Mr. Duggan in that the problem with Provincetown was — for lack of better words — human error and neglect. I’ve read about other vacuum system failures, but in most cases, you will see that those systems were poorly maintained. The problems found with vacuum are the same problems that could arise with any collection system.

    Lynette has shown me other documented cases of vacuum errors, but she’s been showing Provincetown as the most documented case of vacuum failure.

    I also agree with Mr. Duggan that the County shortchanged the community by not doing a co-equal analysis. As we are seeing a rise in inflation and material costs, it should be more apparent to the County that we need a system that is innovative. Depriving the process of a co-equal analysis will ultimately yield “more of the same” results.

  • Aaron

    And I have to agree with Mr. Duggan in that the problem with Provincetown was — for lack of better words — human error and neglect. I’ve read about other vacuum system failures, but in most cases, you will see that those systems were poorly maintained. The problems found with vacuum are the same problems that could arise with any collection system.

    Lynette has shown me other documented cases of vacuum errors, but she’s been showing Provincetown as the most documented case of vacuum failure.

    I also agree with Mr. Duggan that the County shortchanged the community by not doing a co-equal analysis. As we are seeing a rise in inflation and material costs, it should be more apparent to the County that we need a system that is innovative. Depriving the process of a co-equal analysis will ultimately yield “more of the same” results.

  • Lynette

    This makes a good read:

    http://www.capecodchronicle.com/chatnews/chat102209_6.htm

    The captcha code is HEAL.

  • Lynette

    This makes a good read:

    http://www.capecodchronicle.com/chatnews/chat102209_6.htm

    The captcha code is HEAL.

  • Lynette

    Dave and Aaron – what in your opinion IS a co-equal analysis? Once a design is shown to be infeasible, what is the point of continuing to study it?

    There are people in the community who think the County wasted our time and money looking at STEP and vacuum which were are feasible here not only on easement issues, but due to our topography.

    In other words, how does CONTINUING to analyze a non-viable system help the community? What is the point?

  • Lynette

    Dave and Aaron – what in your opinion IS a co-equal analysis? Once a design is shown to be infeasible, what is the point of continuing to study it?

    There are people in the community who think the County wasted our time and money looking at STEP and vacuum which were are feasible here not only on easement issues, but due to our topography.

    In other words, how does CONTINUING to analyze a non-viable system help the community? What is the point?

  • Lynette

    Read the article I posted above – innovative does not necessarily equate to cheaper.

  • Lynette

    Read the article I posted above – innovative does not necessarily equate to cheaper.

  • Lynette

    I meant to say NOT feasible above – but I think you got that. Sorry for the typo.

  • Lynette

    I meant to say NOT feasible above – but I think you got that. Sorry for the typo.

  • Lynette

    Dave, over the course of TAC meetings, BOS meetings, etc., how many times was “leaky gravity system” and “horrible gravity sewer spill” brought up? I lost count. No person making those comments was the least bit interested in balance – admitting that ALL systems screw up. I thought it was about time to restore some balance.

  • Lynette

    Dave, over the course of TAC meetings, BOS meetings, etc., how many times was “leaky gravity system” and “horrible gravity sewer spill” brought up? I lost count. No person making those comments was the least bit interested in balance – admitting that ALL systems screw up. I thought it was about time to restore some balance.

  • Alon Perlman

    Not to speak for Mr. Duggan but, I think “Command and Control” is more in keeping with your style.”the lack of following proper protocol and the lack of communication
    In Paralell-Twin Towers Emergency response. NY Authorities reviewed theirs, regrouped, reorged, sent out specialists to train in Europe , Israel etc…
    The Feds put an administrator in charge, Education Czar?
    Then First Speech-”We Have good news” (found bin Ladin ? What?)

    “We have been allocated FIVE BILLION DOLLARS”.
    first real test of the system?
    A hot terrorista, Code name;Katrina.
    And while on the subject.
    As for the Lisa-Lyn exchange.
    You have no idea how much damage those two are now, and will continue to propogate upon the Innocents, primarily of their own captured flag camps.

  • Alon Perlman

    Not to speak for Mr. Duggan but, I think “Command and Control” is more in keeping with your style.”the lack of following proper protocol and the lack of communication
    In Paralell-Twin Towers Emergency response. NY Authorities reviewed theirs, regrouped, reorged, sent out specialists to train in Europe , Israel etc…
    The Feds put an administrator in charge, Education Czar?
    Then First Speech-”We Have good news” (found bin Ladin ? What?)

    “We have been allocated FIVE BILLION DOLLARS”.
    first real test of the system?
    A hot terrorista, Code name;Katrina.
    And while on the subject.
    As for the Lisa-Lyn exchange.
    You have no idea how much damage those two are now, and will continue to propogate upon the Innocents, primarily of their own captured flag camps.

  • David Duggan

    I’ve purposely stayed away from newspaper articles having the Tribune as a good example of a misinformation /disinformation campaign. I been using Provincetown Town Council transcripts and official reports as my source of information but I read article anyway and got this from it. The article at http://www.capecodchronicle.com/chatnews/chat102209_6.htm talks about a system that will be phased in over 30 years at a $10,000 tie in fee (compared to our $28,000) plus add 31 cents to the tax rate in 2015, declining thereafter which equates to about a maximum of $16 per month, or less than $200 per year by their reckoning. Compared to Los Osos that community plus outlying areas are getting off cheap.
    The TAC never eliminated anything and it was not their purview to do so.
    Vacuum was eliminated by the county as indicated in the scope of work for the engineering consultants hired by the county at the beginning of the process.
    “Co-equal.” You tell me what it means. I haven’t figured it out yet but there hasn’t been “equal” anything as far vacuum collection is concern.

    Wow! This is kind of exciting.

  • David Duggan

    I’ve purposely stayed away from newspaper articles having the Tribune as a good example of a misinformation /disinformation campaign. I been using Provincetown Town Council transcripts and official reports as my source of information but I read article anyway and got this from it. The article at http://www.capecodchronicle.com/chatnews/chat102209_6.htm talks about a system that will be phased in over 30 years at a $10,000 tie in fee (compared to our $28,000) plus add 31 cents to the tax rate in 2015, declining thereafter which equates to about a maximum of $16 per month, or less than $200 per year by their reckoning. Compared to Los Osos that community plus outlying areas are getting off cheap.
    The TAC never eliminated anything and it was not their purview to do so.
    Vacuum was eliminated by the county as indicated in the scope of work for the engineering consultants hired by the county at the beginning of the process.
    “Co-equal.” You tell me what it means. I haven’t figured it out yet but there hasn’t been “equal” anything as far vacuum collection is concern.

    Wow! This is kind of exciting.

  • David Duggan

    Please excuse my typos in my previous post.

  • David Duggan

    Please excuse my typos in my previous post.

  • David Duggan

    P.S. Jeez Alon. Try staying on subject.

  • David Duggan

    P.S. Jeez Alon. Try staying on subject.

  • Aaron

    Dave,

    Thank you for your comments on here.

    Regarding your statement about TAC, I agree with you — and that leads me to a question I have for you.

    Bill Garfinkel wrote in a viewpoint published on February 25, 2009 that the TAC chose gravity over STEP/STEG, effectively removing STEP/STEG from further consideration. Do you think that Garfinkel was overstepping his boundaries as former TAC chairman to make such a declaration when it wasn’t in TAC’s purview to limit viable technologies?

  • Aaron

    Dave,

    Thank you for your comments on here.

    Regarding your statement about TAC, I agree with you — and that leads me to a question I have for you.

    Bill Garfinkel wrote in a viewpoint published on February 25, 2009 that the TAC chose gravity over STEP/STEG, effectively removing STEP/STEG from further consideration. Do you think that Garfinkel was overstepping his boundaries as former TAC chairman to make such a declaration when it wasn’t in TAC’s purview to limit viable technologies?

  • Lynette

    Aaron, I know that you are not addressing your comment to me, but I feel the need to correct some information. Bill’s Viewpoint did not remove STEP/STEG. Lyles Group answered the RFQ, but wasn’t selected, nor did they protest being eliminated as most companies do. If they didn’t protest there must be a reason. I suggest one of you sleuths see why they did not protest. Maybe they felt outclassed by the others?

    It’s kinda like Measure B in reverse this time. That got enough votes to pass (barely) from a lot of heavy campaigning. This time we filled out a survey but campaigning – or perhaps not enough effective campaigning — did not bring STEP to the “winner’s circle” this time. Or perhaps the anti-STEP campaigners were just more effective?

  • Lynette

    Aaron, I know that you are not addressing your comment to me, but I feel the need to correct some information. Bill’s Viewpoint did not remove STEP/STEG. Lyles Group answered the RFQ, but wasn’t selected, nor did they protest being eliminated as most companies do. If they didn’t protest there must be a reason. I suggest one of you sleuths see why they did not protest. Maybe they felt outclassed by the others?

    It’s kinda like Measure B in reverse this time. That got enough votes to pass (barely) from a lot of heavy campaigning. This time we filled out a survey but campaigning – or perhaps not enough effective campaigning — did not bring STEP to the “winner’s circle” this time. Or perhaps the anti-STEP campaigners were just more effective?

  • Lynette

    Dave, I read the article you cite, but I don’t see vacuum mentioned. They are talking about treatment, not conveyance. $10,000? Well, if we had more users like they do, the cost would be cheaper to each of us too.

    I did find this,

    The town has spent a dozen years examining the options, including those cited by the Chatham Concerned Taxpayers, said Selectman Sean Summers.

    “For you to suggest we have not done our fiduciary duty in terms of what is best for the town I think is erroneous,” he said. Noting that he is “pretty conservative with the dollar,” Summers said he’s seen no evidence to show that alternatives such as on-site denitrification septic systems or small neighborhood treatment plants are cheaper than the plan now slated to get underway in February.

    “Yes it’s an enormous amount of money, but so are these [alternative innovative] systems,” he said. “If there’s a silver bullet, we’ll look at it. But we need them to be accepted as legal systems in Massachusetts.” Some of the systems being touted by the taxpayers group are considered experimental and have not been approved by the state, he said. (My observation: Tom Murphy has moved to Massachusetts?)

    “It isn’t something we glossed over,” Duncanson said. Nate Weeks of Stearns and Wheler, the town’s wastewater consultants, added that individual nitrogen-reducing systems would cost about $30,000 per household, neighborhood systems about $50,000 per household, and the recommended centralized system $28,000 per household.

  • Lynette

    Dave, I read the article you cite, but I don’t see vacuum mentioned. They are talking about treatment, not conveyance. $10,000? Well, if we had more users like they do, the cost would be cheaper to each of us too.

    I did find this,

    The town has spent a dozen years examining the options, including those cited by the Chatham Concerned Taxpayers, said Selectman Sean Summers.

    “For you to suggest we have not done our fiduciary duty in terms of what is best for the town I think is erroneous,” he said. Noting that he is “pretty conservative with the dollar,” Summers said he’s seen no evidence to show that alternatives such as on-site denitrification septic systems or small neighborhood treatment plants are cheaper than the plan now slated to get underway in February.

    “Yes it’s an enormous amount of money, but so are these [alternative innovative] systems,” he said. “If there’s a silver bullet, we’ll look at it. But we need them to be accepted as legal systems in Massachusetts.” Some of the systems being touted by the taxpayers group are considered experimental and have not been approved by the state, he said. (My observation: Tom Murphy has moved to Massachusetts?)

    “It isn’t something we glossed over,” Duncanson said. Nate Weeks of Stearns and Wheler, the town’s wastewater consultants, added that individual nitrogen-reducing systems would cost about $30,000 per household, neighborhood systems about $50,000 per household, and the recommended centralized system $28,000 per household.

  • Lynette

    Sorry – don’t know why this double posted.

  • Lynette

    Sorry – don’t know why this double posted.

  • Lynette

    Aaron, if you’d remove the duplicate, it would make for easier reading – if you have time.

  • Lynette

    Aaron, if you’d remove the duplicate, it would make for easier reading – if you have time.

  • Alon Perlman

    Duggan, are you the subject matter police?
    Why should I?
    P.S.
    I would vote for you again , but get some one to donate you 180$ Approx next time so you can have a candidates statement on the Ballot.

  • Alon Perlman

    Duggan, are you the subject matter police?
    Why should I?
    P.S.
    I would vote for you again , but get some one to donate you 180$ Approx next time so you can have a candidates statement on the Ballot.

  • David Duggan

    Just the facts Alon. Just the facts. Dum De Dum Dum.

  • David Duggan

    Just the facts Alon. Just the facts. Dum De Dum Dum.

  • David Duggan

    Lynette

    Wasn’t it you who posted the said link as a good read. So I read it and gave you my opinion reguardless whether are not it talked about vacuum. So I ask the you. Why did you send it?

  • David Duggan

    Lynette

    Wasn’t it you who posted the said link as a good read. So I read it and gave you my opinion reguardless whether are not it talked about vacuum. So I ask the you. Why did you send it?