Message from County: It Was Gravity All Along

I attended Bruce Gibson’s office hours over at Sea Pines in Los Osos. Right away, one thing that got my attention was how attentive the County was when listening to people. Paavo Ogren also attended and I noticed how skilled he is when it comes to speaking extemporaneously regarding the Los Osos wastewater project, however he doesn’t seem to get to the point and answer people’s questions directly most of the time.

We met in the banquet room and the tables were formed in a U-shape with four seats per table and two tables per side. There were more old faces than new ones. A resident from Vista Del Oro came to the office hours and inquired about some of the history behind the LOWWP. Paavo Ogren did most of the talking while Gibson sat, relieved that he didn’t have to recall any specifics. He found it easier to talk about vacation ordinances and his trip to Davis, Sacramento and D.C. with our taxpayer money than the sewer situation itself.

Al Barrow attended the meeting and provided an engineer’s report summarizing the benefits of Orenco STEP/STEG, which consisted of information already known and repeated ad nauseum. His statements would later be cancelled out by Don Bearden who brought up the problems with STEP/STEG — information that was also presented ad nauseum. I honestly did not see the benefit of both of them being there if they cancel each other out.

After waiting for about an hour, I finally had a chance to speak. I asked Bruce and Paavo, “When did you know that gravity collection was the only appropriate solution for Los Osos?” and to paraphrase Paavo’s response, gravity was pre-determined from the beginning of the process. I said that the process seemed to be a bit disingenous given that they’re already made up their mind on what kind of project they want. Paavo was saying that STEP/STEG is a good system but not applicable to Los Osos. However, the whole screening/vetting process has unveiled new twists and turns such as the Tonini site so anything is possible — just don’t expect Paavo to “bet on” STEP/STEG as it being the project they decide to build.

When Gibson talked about the community survey showing preference to gravity, that sort of “Gotcha!” attitude prompted me to follow up on a question on the survey that was a bit biased in my opinion. Question #21 reads, “How much savings over a Gravity System would a STEP/STEG system have to provide to make it worthwhile?” and Bob Semonsen, who served as a member of TAC, boldly (and rudely) interjected in disagreement, saying that the question I cited was actually biased toward STEP/STEG.

The problem is that the question treats STEP/STEG like a burden and the questions attempt to remedy that burden so you have options that mention savings, but what good is that when you have one of the options that says, “Prefer Gravity, not interested in STEP/STEG at any cost.” The question starts with, “How much savings…?” so it doesn’t exactly set the foundation so that the answer to that question would be a preference of collection treatment. When you have the County leaning heavily toward gravity, those who pay attention to what the County is doing will choose the option that appears to be the only viable option to the County to begin with.

Kim Jong-Ill was the only candidate running for leader of North Korea so it’s no surprise that he wins the election unanimously by 100% with 100% approval following a 100% turnout. Sure, the results of the community survey wasn’t unanimous, but the the momentum behind gravity collection is undeniable.

I think that Paavo assumed that I’m a STEP/STEG proponent. To be completely honest, I’m a proponent of a system that works, a system that is affordable, a system that is not built on hype and unrealistic expectations. It’s so easy to say, “Look, gravity has been tried and true all across the United States especially California and it’s the easiest to start and get going,” but when that system doesn’t have sealed pipes (that could cause exfiltration, leakage and pollution of the groundwater) and requires constant maintenance (which will further add to the costs), that makes me wonder if this is a worthy investment for Los Osos. When the sewer is built, I don’t want the community to face the scenario that there is more pollution of the groundwater due to these problems and then we have to pick up the tab. I don’t think that’s fair.

I’m critical of the process because I want it to be done right. The answers provided today by Paavo were comprehensive and it gave me perspective, but at the same time, those answers fell short of providing any substantive reassurance to me.

There needs to be a greater push for lowering the cost and I’m grateful that the County is aggressively seeking funding for Los Osos. We do need a sewer but we also need a sewer that doesn’t force those — who would actually benefit from it and should benefit from it — out of town.

  • Anonymous

    Vaccum was never considered for the whole town because Paavo knew that it would win in a fair comparision. It is amazing that he was able to include it as a component of the hybrid gravity (since it is the only system that will work in part of the town) but completely disregard it as a solution for the whole town… with no reason provided.

    So much for a fair process.

  • Anonymous

    Vaccum was never considered for the whole town because Paavo knew that it would win in a fair comparision. It is amazing that he was able to include it as a component of the hybrid gravity (since it is the only system that will work in part of the town) but completely disregard it as a solution for the whole town… with no reason provided.So much for a fair process.

  • Aaron

    I read the Low Pressure tech memo and it was interesting that the County never looked into AIRVAC(tm), which has a solid reputation for their successful vacuum systems.

    Did the County really look at what the vendors had to offer? It seemed to me that they did a broad summary of what each system is suppose to do along with the flaws under the assumption that those flaws cannot be remedied by the manufacturer — so let’s go with the sewer system that most of California has gone for. That seemed to be the most shovel-ready, but gravity, too, has flaws.

  • Aaron

    I read the Low Pressure tech memo and it was interesting that the County never looked into AIRVAC(tm), which has a solid reputation for their successful vacuum systems.Did the County really look at what the vendors had to offer? It seemed to me that they did a broad summary of what each system is suppose to do along with the flaws under the assumption that those flaws cannot be remedied by the manufacturer — so let’s go with the sewer system that most of California has gone for. That seemed to be the most shovel-ready, but gravity, too, has flaws.

  • Sewertoons

    I’d like to see someone other than vendors or writers attached to magazines that write on the products that advertise in them, assess these systems.

    Please cite where Air-Vac has been evaluated by an independent, scientific panel of experts. Even if it is great – is it right for our conditions?

    So far it makes sense in flat areas or areas with lots of rocks and tree roots. We have hills and sand. It will work great for the high groundwater, bayside homes.

    I think we don’t find many examples in hilly areas because it just doesn’t make sense to pay to push masses around when you can have gravity to do it for free.

    Please check out the Rough Screening Report. Air-Vac – the only system that makes it for this country — is in there. It has nothing to do with Paavo’s preferences, just gravity and cost.

    Every system has flaws. The question is – which is the LEAST flawed for our conditions.

  • Sewertoons

    I’d like to see someone other than vendors or writers attached to magazines that write on the products that advertise in them, assess these systems.Please cite where Air-Vac has been evaluated by an independent, scientific panel of experts. Even if it is great – is it right for our conditions?So far it makes sense in flat areas or areas with lots of rocks and tree roots. We have hills and sand. It will work great for the high groundwater, bayside homes. I think we don’t find many examples in hilly areas because it just doesn’t make sense to pay to push masses around when you can have gravity to do it for free.Please check out the Rough Screening Report. Air-Vac – the only system that makes it for this country — is in there. It has nothing to do with Paavo’s preferences, just gravity and cost.Every system has flaws. The question is – which is the LEAST flawed for our conditions.

  • Sewertoons

    Aaron, I want to tell you how much Paavo appreciated your approach yesterday. He said this in front of the group – so it is not just me reporting – everyone still left heard this (the meeting didn’t end until 6:22!).

    He liked how you asked the questions. I have to agree – you do have a genuine wish to get to the FACTS, and do not employ judgement or anger to seek them out.

  • Sewertoons

    Aaron, I want to tell you how much Paavo appreciated your approach yesterday. He said this in front of the group – so it is not just me reporting – everyone still left heard this (the meeting didn’t end until 6:22!). He liked how you asked the questions. I have to agree – you do have a genuine wish to get to the FACTS, and do not employ judgement or anger to seek them out.

  • Aaron

    I’ll keep my eyes open for any independent studies of AIRVAC. I’m also interested in seeking those out.

    As far as Paavo is concerned, I appreciate that he returned the gesture to thank me. I genuinely want to help and as silly as it sounds, the office hours meeting was therapeutic.

    I can see that the County is approachable and they understand where I’m coming from. As a token of my gratitude, I feel it’s important to be constructive, concise and be as approachable as they are. Agreement or disagreement is not where the conversation should end.

  • Aaron

    I’ll keep my eyes open for any independent studies of AIRVAC. I’m also interested in seeking those out.As far as Paavo is concerned, I appreciate that he returned the gesture to thank me. I genuinely want to help and as silly as it sounds, the office hours meeting was therapeutic. I can see that the County is approachable and they understand where I’m coming from. As a token of my gratitude, I feel it’s important to be constructive, concise and be as approachable as they are. Agreement or disagreement is not where the conversation should end.

  • Sewertoons

    Aaron, and I don’t mean this in any condescending way at all, young as you are, you are a lot more grown up than many elders in this town. Your mind is open, you are smart, you have the ability to think things through and I wish there were a lot more like you.

    Hey – therapy is good wherever you find it! (Young is good too – treasure every moment.)

    I am truly glad that you are working on this Air-Vac thing!

    PS – Check out the Rough Screening Report. I wish it had been a bit bulkier in this area – could have warded off some of our angst.

  • Sewertoons

    Aaron, and I don’t mean this in any condescending way at all, young as you are, you are a lot more grown up than many elders in this town. Your mind is open, you are smart, you have the ability to think things through and I wish there were a lot more like you.Hey – therapy is good wherever you find it! (Young is good too – treasure every moment.)I am truly glad that you are working on this Air-Vac thing! PS – Check out the Rough Screening Report. I wish it had been a bit bulkier in this area – could have warded off some of our angst.

  • Anonymous

    Aaron
    This site has links to the information you seek, abstacts from a few trade journals. Unfortunately access is limited. If you have time to hunt down the articles and the citations, more power to you. (Unfortunately much of the info on vacuum is not in English.)

    http://water.environmental-expert.com/Index.aspx?idproducttype=0&cmp=1&word=Vacuum%20Sewer%20Systems&level=2#

    You might also want to see how the system is working in Venice (Italy) I could not find recent information in English. We are behind the world in this playing field.

  • Anonymous

    AaronThis site has links to the information you seek, abstacts from a few trade journals. Unfortunately access is limited. If you have time to hunt down the articles and the citations, more power to you. (Unfortunately much of the info on vacuum is not in English.)http://water.environmental-expert.com/Index.aspx?idproducttype=0&cmp=1&word=Vacuum%20Sewer%20Systems&level=2#You might also want to see how the system is working in Venice (Italy) I could not find recent information in English. We are behind the world in this playing field.

  • Alon Perlman

    Hi Aaron,
    That Paavo is a skilled politician, is hardly news.
    before I drill you on some specifics though, I would like to concur in that you are providing your community a unique service, with your thought-full original commentary and ability to analyze and self criticize. As for your age, don’t allow Toony to age discriminate you. When I was your age I spake as a child. As for my current age? It’s open source, I left a copy of my birth certificate under a pile of dirt at the mouth the Bay. Someone came along a lot later and put a big rock over it.
    Re. repetitiveness of opinions; Al Barrow promotes the technology of companies that he tries to form business relations with. He shows up everywhere all the time, attempts to dominate the agenda (and frequently succeeds, usually with issues that are beyond the preview of the institution) and self-promotes incessantly. He is also a renter and though he directly implied that he himself had to unfairly bear the costs of pumping (“I only made 900 dollars last month. It’s unfair”, Dec.? last year re CSD services 218), he has never had to bear those costs as a homeowner.
    Don Bearden owns his properties including personal residence and (rental income?) located in areas of Baywood that have HIGH groundwater and as a person who has some engineering qualifications has chosen that the burying of tanks in his yard is disadvantageous. They are hardly Twins or Yin Yang opposites, so I have to say the “canceling out” statement is spurious- or in other words thanks to Don for the balancing- would you prefer sole sourcing the one sided views? (And what authority will decree who shall spaketh firstly- you did not accept Sup. Gibson’s 2 minute limitation, which was legal). And by the way, I am a STEP/STEG proponent, because of the processing PRIOR to Conveyance, and because of the high level of digestion (and reduction of pathogenicity) as well as the creation of a mostly liquid supernatant that could easily be conveyed to a plant for further processing, via small diameter pipes, that follow close under the surface of the terrain (I don’t believe in ideologues shoving technology down peoples throats, any more than government should).
    Your own column, this issue; survey bias, specifically “is the STEP worth the savings”. This not an earth shaking discovery- this is no scoop mister- and thanks for bringing that issue up even though others have noted it. The issue with the twenty oneth question? With this controversial a project there should had been some discussion with the TAC re survey bias or appearances of bias. In fact the STEP VS Gravity should had been presented in general in the first TAC meeting and then again at the end as a specific dedicated meeting. You are of course on track with the exfiltration ground water issue but please be more specific as follows- Many locations obtain their drinking water from groundwater with potential for contamination from their underlying gravity infrastructure.

    LOS OSOS obtains ALL it’s drinking water from an aquifer located right beneath the collection system. That aquifer that is overlayed with rolling dunes LAYERED with Sand Clay Gravel natural filtration that is unique, irreproducible and threatened with extinction as a functioning filtration system by overpumping and resultant seawater intrusion. Gravity cuts through those layers and is subject to undetectable leaks. Add the proximity to the cleanest estuary on the West Coast and you have a UNIQUE situation.
    83-13 = Uniquer.
    CDOs on 45 representative individuals = Uniquerer yet.
    P.S.
    oh anonymouse above are you Mark Low today? and P.P.S. both Don and Al loved the vacume System

  • Alon Perlman

    Hi Aaron,That Paavo is a skilled politician, is hardly news.before I drill you on some specifics though, I would like to concur in that you are providing your community a unique service, with your thought-full original commentary and ability to analyze and self criticize. As for your age, don’t allow Toony to age discriminate you. When I was your age I spake as a child. As for my current age? It’s open source, I left a copy of my birth certificate under a pile of dirt at the mouth the Bay. Someone came along a lot later and put a big rock over it.Re. repetitiveness of opinions; Al Barrow promotes the technology of companies that he tries to form business relations with. He shows up everywhere all the time, attempts to dominate the agenda (and frequently succeeds, usually with issues that are beyond the preview of the institution) and self-promotes incessantly. He is also a renter and though he directly implied that he himself had to unfairly bear the costs of pumping (“I only made 900 dollars last month. It’s unfair”, Dec.? last year re CSD services 218), he has never had to bear those costs as a homeowner.Don Bearden owns his properties including personal residence and (rental income?) located in areas of Baywood that have HIGH groundwater and as a person who has some engineering qualifications has chosen that the burying of tanks in his yard is disadvantageous. They are hardly Twins or Yin Yang opposites, so I have to say the “canceling out” statement is spurious- or in other words thanks to Don for the balancing- would you prefer sole sourcing the one sided views? (And what authority will decree who shall spaketh firstly- you did not accept Sup. Gibson’s 2 minute limitation, which was legal). And by the way, I am a STEP/STEG proponent, because of the processing PRIOR to Conveyance, and because of the high level of digestion (and reduction of pathogenicity) as well as the creation of a mostly liquid supernatant that could easily be conveyed to a plant for further processing, via small diameter pipes, that follow close under the surface of the terrain (I don’t believe in ideologues shoving technology down peoples throats, any more than government should).Your own column, this issue; survey bias, specifically “is the STEP worth the savings”. This not an earth shaking discovery- this is no scoop mister- and thanks for bringing that issue up even though others have noted it. The issue with the twenty oneth question? With this controversial a project there should had been some discussion with the TAC re survey bias or appearances of bias. In fact the STEP VS Gravity should had been presented in general in the first TAC meeting and then again at the end as a specific dedicated meeting. You are of course on track with the exfiltration ground water issue but please be more specific as follows- Many locations obtain their drinking water from groundwater with potential for contamination from their underlying gravity infrastructure.LOS OSOS obtains ALL it’s drinking water from an aquifer located right beneath the collection system. That aquifer that is overlayed with rolling dunes LAYERED with Sand Clay Gravel natural filtration that is unique, irreproducible and threatened with extinction as a functioning filtration system by overpumping and resultant seawater intrusion. Gravity cuts through those layers and is subject to undetectable leaks. Add the proximity to the cleanest estuary on the West Coast and you have a UNIQUE situation. 83-13 = Uniquer.CDOs on 45 representative individuals = Uniquerer yet.P.S.oh anonymouse above are you Mark Low today? and P.P.S. both Don and Al loved the vacume System

  • Anonymous

    No Alon, I am not Mark, Al, or Don. In fact I have a difficult time coming anywhere near any of them. Can’t trust them, just like you can’t trust Paavo.

    I was also a STEP proponent, but changed my tune when I realized that the majority of this town is so freaked out by septic tanks that they would never vote for STEP (even though they already have a tank in their front yard).

    Vacuum is the next best choice. No deep trenches. No leaky pipes. It was my understanding that the low energy treatment would require septage to work correctly. I understand that it is a bit frightening to convey pathogens, but I am certainly more comfortable with a sealed system than with unsealed gravity, especially if it is only going just outside of town.

    It is time to face the facts, TW and Pandora have done an excellent job of mass market mind manipulation in Los Osos. If you really want to sell an environmentally preferable system, you best look for a system other than septic tanks in the yard. Paavo realized this early on purposely pitted gravity and septic tanks, avoiding alternatives that could gain public favor. If gravity (sealed and unsealed), vacuum, grinder pumps, and STEP were all fairly compared with advantages, disadvantages, and costs, the people would have been able to make an educated choice rather than an emotional choice. STEP may have even won out with an open honest process, but it is too late for that.

    Honesty is not the way it is done in Los Osos, for this particular project or in the past. It continues to be lying, cheating, and manipulating the public. We need the compromise system that avoids the greatest disadvantages of STEP and gravity, and we need it now.

  • Anonymous

    No Alon, I am not Mark, Al, or Don. In fact I have a difficult time coming anywhere near any of them. Can’t trust them, just like you can’t trust Paavo. I was also a STEP proponent, but changed my tune when I realized that the majority of this town is so freaked out by septic tanks that they would never vote for STEP (even though they already have a tank in their front yard). Vacuum is the next best choice. No deep trenches. No leaky pipes. It was my understanding that the low energy treatment would require septage to work correctly. I understand that it is a bit frightening to convey pathogens, but I am certainly more comfortable with a sealed system than with unsealed gravity, especially if it is only going just outside of town.It is time to face the facts, TW and Pandora have done an excellent job of mass market mind manipulation in Los Osos. If you really want to sell an environmentally preferable system, you best look for a system other than septic tanks in the yard. Paavo realized this early on purposely pitted gravity and septic tanks, avoiding alternatives that could gain public favor. If gravity (sealed and unsealed), vacuum, grinder pumps, and STEP were all fairly compared with advantages, disadvantages, and costs, the people would have been able to make an educated choice rather than an emotional choice. STEP may have even won out with an open honest process, but it is too late for that. Honesty is not the way it is done in Los Osos, for this particular project or in the past. It continues to be lying, cheating, and manipulating the public. We need the compromise system that avoids the greatest disadvantages of STEP and gravity, and we need it now.

  • Alon Perlman

    Ok Anonymouse,
    As for your points- and in no particular order;
    Yes,
    Yep,
    Didn’t do a better job of stating it myself,
    Yeppers,
    Agreed

    Since “anonimouse” is a category available to all, I suggest you (please) use a pseudonym, I think your comments have enough merit to not be confused with those of other anons. And yes plan “C” (unknown but not gravity) is the best. I was actually surprised that the original county survey (last year) had STEP as close to Gravity as it came out then. Not having a 1 to 1 replacement of Tanks in the same hole sealed the no-deal.

    {Start Rant}As for your final point; After five years I’ve seen manipulations of the public taking place on both sides. Not only the pursuit of money fuels this wreckage, pursuit of power and ego stroking for a few, group acceptance for other’s, the absence of direct exposure to all available info. (channel 20) are good motivators for unintentional or intentional intellectual dishonesty. A lack of training in a scientific area (doesn’t matter in what- it’s the discipline and self criticality that matters). Couple this with the ready availability of pre-digested material, add some septic water, preferably caffinated and nitrated enough to keep the blood boiling and you have –Instant Experts. And some of these EXPERTS are heavily invested in Actual environonsense such as entheusiastic support for New untested WaterBoard programs. HELLO, Lessons of the past? How long did it take to Establish that LO is not significantly contributing to Estuarian pollution? One expert “an actual true expert” on his specialty comes to Los Osos, picks up a phrase from the people he meets one evening in LO and repeats it, not even knowing that it is completely unsupported. Now it suddenly becomes a Scientific Fact. It was actually submitted to the DEIR by a “once” legitimate environmental group. It is not true and most definately not researched (I asked him, he simply repeated what he heard) In fact the interim source is an intelligent well meaning individual who may not know that she is damaging Los Osos. (If you are reading this, “M” call me)

    I’ve also seen outright lying cheating grandstanding and character assassination being accepted. I’m of the firm conviction that more bad things are done (unintended consequences) by true believers who allow themselves (and the people they believe they are protecting) to exist in a state of perpetual victim-hood, then by greedy evil-doers. The second group will leave you alone after they have bled you dry. The first group is larger and their genuine naivete makes truth finding harder. They also are responsible in part for the good things that happen, hard to point them away from a selective or filtered truth and lead them to the one true god in the land of Goshen. Los Osos is unique in that this condition (institutionalized community activism) has persisted for so long.{End Rant}

    (Oh -Conveying pathogens- the paragraph, I’m not sure I’m reading it correctly. There is a future availability of septage in Los Osos simply due to the non prohibition zone septic tanks. All of the systems convey pathogens until the end points of secondary treatment. The bio-solids in a tank that has been collecting them for 5-25 years contain a smaller portion of those specific disease pathogens that are present in the human body until the person surrenders them into the a-commode-ating appliance. If the system pumps raw sewage directly from the house to a sewer plant then it is potent in the pipes almost to a degree as if it was a bed pan in a hospital. If the raw sewage has sat in a septic tank or STEP STEG even for only a few weeks then competition and selective growth will decrease the percentage of those bacteria that are specialized to grow in the human body. (There will be some cross contamination from fresh input streaming in depending on design)but It will generally also cause over time a decrease in the DNA that supports human infectivity and specifically plasmid DNA (not part of the circular genome that defines the Bacteria type but a specialized type of DNA that transmits Drug resistant mutations and other disease-causing genetic components). Now some of the processes (Denitrification) need a carbon source, other processes need “Activated sludge (biologically active live bacteria found in raw sewage)” kind of like (exactly like) using a small amount of old yeast to start the dough rising. Or –brewing your own beer, adding sugar at the end to get the fizz back-or second rising in dough. The TAC and DEIR did not consider the infective potential in a comparison that would allow Co-equal analysis. No plot here, it simply (apparently) isn’t normally done. Once I made the County aware of this, nothing happened. The DEIR considered Raw sewage from Gravity and Effluent (Party degraded stew) from STEP/STEG to be equivalent. The members of the active public that were made aware of this had “sexier” distractions to proponentise. New technology, a new environmental buzz-word, you name it. Now, I didn’t research this-I just Know it. Sorry about the exposition. I had intended to put something like this in my DEIR submission but ran out of time.

  • Alon Perlman

    Ok Anonymouse,As for your points- and in no particular order;Yes,Yep,Didn’t do a better job of stating it myself,Yeppers,AgreedSince “anonimouse” is a category available to all, I suggest you (please) use a pseudonym, I think your comments have enough merit to not be confused with those of other anons. And yes plan “C” (unknown but not gravity) is the best. I was actually surprised that the original county survey (last year) had STEP as close to Gravity as it came out then. Not having a 1 to 1 replacement of Tanks in the same hole sealed the no-deal.{Start Rant}As for your final point; After five years I’ve seen manipulations of the public taking place on both sides. Not only the pursuit of money fuels this wreckage, pursuit of power and ego stroking for a few, group acceptance for other’s, the absence of direct exposure to all available info. (channel 20) are good motivators for unintentional or intentional intellectual dishonesty. A lack of training in a scientific area (doesn’t matter in what- it’s the discipline and self criticality that matters). Couple this with the ready availability of pre-digested material, add some septic water, preferably caffinated and nitrated enough to keep the blood boiling and you have –Instant Experts. And some of these EXPERTS are heavily invested in Actual environonsense such as entheusiastic support for New untested WaterBoard programs. HELLO, Lessons of the past? How long did it take to Establish that LO is not significantly contributing to Estuarian pollution? One expert “an actual true expert” on his specialty comes to Los Osos, picks up a phrase from the people he meets one evening in LO and repeats it, not even knowing that it is completely unsupported. Now it suddenly becomes a Scientific Fact. It was actually submitted to the DEIR by a “once” legitimate environmental group. It is not true and most definately not researched (I asked him, he simply repeated what he heard) In fact the interim source is an intelligent well meaning individual who may not know that she is damaging Los Osos. (If you are reading this, “M” call me)I’ve also seen outright lying cheating grandstanding and character assassination being accepted. I’m of the firm conviction that more bad things are done (unintended consequences) by true believers who allow themselves (and the people they believe they are protecting) to exist in a state of perpetual victim-hood, then by greedy evil-doers. The second group will leave you alone after they have bled you dry. The first group is larger and their genuine naivete makes truth finding harder. They also are responsible in part for the good things that happen, hard to point them away from a selective or filtered truth and lead them to the one true god in the land of Goshen. Los Osos is unique in that this condition (institutionalized community activism) has persisted for so long.{End Rant}(Oh -Conveying pathogens- the paragraph, I’m not sure I’m reading it correctly. There is a future availability of septage in Los Osos simply due to the non prohibition zone septic tanks. All of the systems convey pathogens until the end points of secondary treatment. The bio-solids in a tank that has been collecting them for 5-25 years contain a smaller portion of those specific disease pathogens that are present in the human body until the person surrenders them into the a-commode-ating appliance. If the system pumps raw sewage directly from the house to a sewer plant then it is potent in the pipes almost to a degree as if it was a bed pan in a hospital. If the raw sewage has sat in a septic tank or STEP STEG even for only a few weeks then competition and selective growth will decrease the percentage of those bacteria that are specialized to grow in the human body. (There will be some cross contamination from fresh input streaming in depending on design)but It will generally also cause over time a decrease in the DNA that supports human infectivity and specifically plasmid DNA (not part of the circular genome that defines the Bacteria type but a specialized type of DNA that transmits Drug resistant mutations and other disease-causing genetic components). Now some of the processes (Denitrification) need a carbon source, other processes need “Activated sludge (biologically active live bacteria found in raw sewage)” kind of like (exactly like) using a small amount of old yeast to start the dough rising. Or –brewing your own beer, adding sugar at the end to get the fizz back-or second rising in dough. The TAC and DEIR did not consider the infective potential in a comparison that would allow Co-equal analysis. No plot here, it simply (apparently) isn’t normally done. Once I made the County aware of this, nothing happened. The DEIR considered Raw sewage from Gravity and Effluent (Party degraded stew) from STEP/STEG to be equivalent. The members of the active public that were made aware of this had “sexier” distractions to proponentise. New technology, a new environmental buzz-word, you name it. Now, I didn’t research this-I just Know it. Sorry about the exposition. I had intended to put something like this in my DEIR submission but ran out of time.

  • Anonymous

    Alon
    Thank you for the explanation. Your point is valid. How do we work with this information, integrating it into a project that all people except the “my way or the highway” could easily live with?

    Just thinking outside the box; would it be possible to build this into the treatment process, possibly one or more large sealed holding tanks in transit to or at the treatment site? What amount of brew time would be required? At what point would the costs exceed the benefits?

  • Anonymous

    AlonThank you for the explanation. Your point is valid. How do we work with this information, integrating it into a project that all people except the “my way or the highway” could easily live with? Just thinking outside the box; would it be possible to build this into the treatment process, possibly one or more large sealed holding tanks in transit to or at the treatment site? What amount of brew time would be required? At what point would the costs exceed the benefits?

  • Watershed Mark

    Lyneete wrote: I think we don’t find many examples in hilly areas because it just doesn’t make sense to pay to push masses around when you can have gravity to do it for free.

    Lyneete,
    Please explain how “gravity” flows for free up hills.

    If you ask Mr. Dean (I forgot his last name), he will tell you that the same topography challenges exist for any system and the only way to eliminate “paying to push to push masses around” is to collect and treat in a
    decentralized manner.

    There are 22 lift stations in the gravity design being considered.
    Gravity won’t flow for fee up hill, just ask Mr. Dean (I forgot his last name).

  • Watershed Mark

    Lyneete wrote: I think we don’t find many examples in hilly areas because it just doesn’t make sense to pay to push masses around when you can have gravity to do it for free.Lyneete, Please explain how “gravity” flows for free up hills.If you ask Mr. Dean (I forgot his last name), he will tell you that the same topography challenges exist for any system and the only way to eliminate “paying to push to push masses around” is to collect and treat in adecentralized manner.There are 22 lift stations in the gravity design being considered.Gravity won’t flow for fee up hill, just ask Mr. Dean (I forgot his last name).

  • Anonymous

    wsm

    type more slowly or put down the bottle

    the typos are gettin’ bad

  • Watershed Mark

    Alon,
    I always post under my own name.

  • Anonymous

    wsmtype more slowly or put down the bottlethe typos are gettin’ bad

  • Watershed Mark

    Alon,I always post under my own name.

  • Watershed Mark

    I rarely drink alcohol. Maybe I should turn on the spell check feature.

  • Watershed Mark

    I rarely drink alcohol. Maybe I should turn on the spell check feature.

  • Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener)

    Is there a spell check feature?

    Are there other features which could also be turned on like a logic check feature?

  • Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neene

    Is there a spell check feature?Are there other features which could also be turned on like a logic check feature?

  • Aaron

    Mozilla Firefox has a built-in spellchecker. Download the browser at http://www.mozilla.org.

  • Aaron

    Mozilla Firefox has a built-in spellchecker. Download the browser at http://www.mozilla.org.

  • Sewertoons

    I use Safari and I check spelling while typing. Happy St. Patrick’s Day1

  • Sewertoons

    I use Safari and I check spelling while typing. Happy St. Patrick’s Day1

  • Alon Perlman

    Oh Mark Low water mark I enjoy about 33% of your postings but you do overpost
    As for identity-I just took a guess, at one point i thought you were posting Link addresses but not links, so I thought an earlier post from anonymouse with an address but not a clickable link was a “tell” a “Clue”,
    Just lazy thinking on my part . I immediately saw from your links on Peachy Belles Cannons that Modus Apparandus for you, does include using live links, did I say using? Overusing is a more a destinctive mark low touch. and it is easier to use the links assuming they are relevant.
    Overthinkings and Capitalization (of words) may be my “tells” if i was to post anonymously. Anyway I think people may pay more attention to you if you post less. Just a theory, you see.

  • Alon Perlman

    Oh Mark Low water mark I enjoy about 33% of your postings but you do overpostAs for identity-I just took a guess, at one point i thought you were posting Link addresses but not links, so I thought an earlier post from anonymouse with an address but not a clickable link was a “tell” a “Clue”,Just lazy thinking on my part . I immediately saw from your links on Peachy Belles Cannons that Modus Apparandus for you, does include using live links, did I say using? Overusing is a more a destinctive mark low touch. and it is easier to use the links assuming they are relevant.Overthinkings and Capitalization (of words) may be my “tells” if i was to post anonymously. Anyway I think people may pay more attention to you if you post less. Just a theory, you see.